tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post1177649022308790307..comments2014-01-15T07:07:24.946-08:00Comments on Ronnie's blog - thoughts of a socialist animal liberationist: A Greenprint for Animal LiberationRonnie Leehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02398202983663691041noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post-77818100087307975022014-01-15T07:07:24.946-08:002014-01-15T07:07:24.946-08:00Finally, with regard to comments I've received...Finally, with regard to comments I've received about this blog article from elsewhere, there's been some concern about my "focuses less on shouty demos and hero-worship of direct action" statement, with some people being led to believe I no longer think such activities have any value.<br /><br />That is not at all the case. I think direct action in its many forms (ALF, hunt sabs, Sea Shepherd etc.) has saved many thousands of animals from suffering and slaughter and is of great value for doing so. <br /><br />Demonstrations, (even shouty ones, sometimes) can often also have a positive value.<br /><br />However, I believe such activities can only ever play a relatively small part in the achievement of animal liberation and we have to get a lot more people doing vegan outreach and political campaigning, if animal liberation is ever to be obtained.<br /><br />Let's take the example of the badger cull, forinstance. I was in total support of those good people who took direct action to try to prevent badgers being shot and I even joined them on a couple of occasions, as well as collecting money and vegan food to sustain them.<br /><br />However, unless a sufficient number of people do the educational and political work to get a government into power that will end the cull and give better protection to wildlife, activists are going to have to sab the cull and other forms of wildlife persecution (and only be able to save a minority of the persecuted animals) until the mountains tumble and the seas freeze over.<br /><br />As expected, I've received some criticism for my support for the Green Party. I've never claimed the Greens were perfect and they aren't, but it really is important to wake up and smell the coffee (or herbal tea, or whatever) and take a close look at the behaviour of ordinary people when we are considering what options we have for the achievement of positive change.<br /><br />There isn't going to be a revolution. Even less so an anarchist society. Most ordinary people are far too passive, apathetic and leader-following for those things to ever happen. <br /><br />The best we can hope for is a socialist society where those in authority make sure that there is fairness, that everybody's basic needs are provided for and that the vulnerable (including non-human animals) are protected and cared for. <br /><br />Some may think I'm advocating a nanny state and I'm happy for them to think it. Better a caring and protective nanny than the vicious demons we have at present.<br /><br />We vegans need to be in authority, otherwise some far worse buggers than us will be, and I believe the best vehicle we can use to get there is the Green Party.Ronnie Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02398202983663691041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post-18695694031557879512014-01-15T06:49:03.698-08:002014-01-15T06:49:03.698-08:00And thanks, Jake.
I used to feel like you about v...And thanks, Jake.<br /><br />I used to feel like you about vegan fairs and what you say may still be the case with some of them, but at many of such events, where surveys have been taken, it generally turns out that only half of those attending are vegan, with the other half being made up of 50% vegetarian and 50% meat-eaters.<br /><br />I think the key lies in how such events are publicised and advertised. If this is done using only social media, very few of the "unconverted" will be reached, but if there's plenty of publicity in local newspapers and radio and lots of leaflets advertising the event are distributed to the public, many more non-vegans are likely to attend.<br /><br />This doesn't just apply to vegan fairs, but to smaller events organised by local vegan outreach groups, where it'll be just the same already-vegan faces turning up every time unless sufficient effort is made to inform the public. <br /><br />One of the best, cheapest and easiest way of getting the vegan message to the public is through street stalls. In some areas the council can make it difficult to do these, but info stalls can often also be done in libraries and at community events. Take a look at Worcestershire Vegans & Veggies' Facebook page (www.facebook.com/WorcestershireVegansVeggies) for good examples of the variety of different events where info stalls can be held.<br /><br />I think you're right about the vegan cafes, wholefood shops and serving of vegan food, Jake, and I feel the best vehicle for the setting up and running of these is, once again, the local vegan outreach group. Ronnie Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02398202983663691041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post-87173411445752700262014-01-15T06:44:24.408-08:002014-01-15T06:44:24.408-08:00Thanks, Mark.
I think it's important to educa...Thanks, Mark.<br /><br />I think it's important to educate and encourage people to reduce their consumption of animal products while promoting veganism as the best option. If we adopt an all or nothing approach, some people may just carry on as before, if they feel total veganism would be too difficult for them.<br /><br />I feel there's a strong case for the toe-in-the-water approach you suggest, Mark. Nick Cooney mentions this in his excellent Science of Animal Advocacy talk (www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUEGBDpmX0A). I attended a similar presentation by Nick in Birmingham a few months ago and was very impressed by what he had to say because, like myself, he believes we need to take into account the limitations of ordinary people and understand how they really operate in order to change their behaviour, rather than bestowing intellectual and moral abilities on them that they don't, in reality, possess.<br /><br />Having said that, we also need to recognise that vegetarians may still be contributing just as much to animal suffering and slaughter if all they are doing is just substituting eggs and dairy for the meat and fish they were previously eating, so we need to be encouraging existing and prospective vegetarians to eat vegetable products in place of meat and fish.<br /><br />One of the problems in terms of getting vegetarians to go vegan is that many vegetarians are unaware of the suffering and slaughter involved in the production of eggs and dairy products. It's obvious that meat and fish products involve slaughter, but not nearly so obvious in the case of eggs and dairy. <br /><br />Therefore, as is the case with many of them, if vegetarians aren't involved in the animal protection movement and don't read vegetarian publications, they may be totally unaware of the reasons for going vegan. This was certainly the case with myself when I was a vegetarian, before I wandered into a health food shop that was advertising "vegetarian products" and picked up a copy of the Vegetarian Society's magazine that had an article about veganism in it.<br /><br />I think targetting such non-movement vegetarians with the vegan message would be very productive, but how to do so is a difficult question. If only we could put vegan leaflets inside every packet of Quorn in supermarkets!<br /><br />With regard to "showing horrific scenes from factory farms and slaughterhouses", I'm not a big fan of that either and would never display such images on information stalls as I think there's a very strong chance of them just frightening people away. I wish some of the national animal protection societies would understand this, as I've often received posters from them that I've felt unable to use because of them being too gory.Ronnie Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02398202983663691041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post-80880709973121768212014-01-06T14:07:19.229-08:002014-01-06T14:07:19.229-08:00Hi Ronnie, very good article but just one point I ...Hi Ronnie, very good article but just one point I think you've missed out here.<br /><br />I have come to the conclusion that certain types of vegan outreach are preaching to the converted. Vegan fairs for example (especially one that charge money to enter) only really attract people who are already interested in veganism. They do create more vegans though and tip people over the edge into turning vegan, and they help promote vegan groups and companies. Vegan social groups also only attract people already interested in veganism.<br /><br />However, I now believe that a creation of a vegan culture is the single most effective way to turn people vegan. The best way to do this is to set up vegan businesses or not-for-profit businesses. Think about most small towns, do they have a vegan cafe or wholefood shop? If more vegan cafes and wholefood shops existed people would find it much easier to turn vegan and find vegan food. The more vegan options there are out there and the more vegan households there are then the more people are exposed to vegan culture.<br /><br />In the punk scene here in Manchester, some punks used to put on a weekly "vegan dinner raves" in one of the local squats, served vegan food at gigs, distributed vegan/animal rights literature, and I can possibly name 30-50 people who have become vegan because of exposure to this level of vegan culture. When most of your friends are vegan it's hard to find excuses for yourself not to be vegan any more.<br /><br />JakeJake Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10102546486159615738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3401060382034201175.post-28462090569475901632014-01-05T16:18:50.152-08:002014-01-05T16:18:50.152-08:00Excellent article and well written. As a newcomer ...Excellent article and well written. As a newcomer to the world of veganism, I have had my eyes opened to the opportunities to reach out to others and encourage them to consider veganism as a way of doing their bit to end the rampant speciesism that has infected mankind for so long. For many, veganism is just "taking it all a bit far". It is easy for people to understand vegetarianism as it has become so common and most people know a few vegetarians. It takes a lot more to get ordinary folk to understand how easy it is to become vegan. Perhaps there is a need for a filter-down approach; encourage vegetarians to become vegan and encourage meat-eaters to become vegetarian. This might not be seen as such a radical step for either group. Of course, when the meat-eaters have had a stint as a veggie, we need to encourage them to take the next step.<br /><br />The more vegans there are, the easier veganism becomes as the market grows and becomes more attractive to producers and sellers. The first vegan supermarket opens in the UK soon (Berlin-based Veganz). Imagine how many more vegan friendly shops and products there would be if the market topped the 1m mark.<br /><br />In terms of education, there seems to be a perception that there is vegan food. That it is some kind of weird alien food that lightweight hippies eat. I think it's important to help people understand that veganism isn't so much about what you eat as what you don't eat. People eat "vegan food" every day without thinking about it; fruit, nuts, beans, pulses, beer, (some) wine, etc... A message about the health benefits of veganism and the downside of eating meat and dairy is sometimes an easier starting point than showing horrific scenes from factory farms and slaughterhouses which often turn people off. Watch the surprise when you tell people that the worlds strongest man, Patrick Baboumian is a vegan!!<br /><br />I'm with you all the way Ronnie. It's time to rid the world of speciesism and this dominion that humans seem to think they have over animals and the environment and slowly we will make a difference. Apologies for the long-winded comment, it's late and my mind is racing! Muzzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06982721378171326937noreply@blogger.com